Post by Paddy by Grace on Jan 23, 2010 3:35:18 GMT -7
To stay or go? What to do when your Church goes Apostate
(my comment at the bottom)
www.christianpost.com/article/20100115/lutherans-nationwide-wrestle-with-staying-in-leaving-elca/index.html
The South Dakota bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America said he has no plans of leading his synod out of the denomination over last year's pro-gay actions.
That's not to say he's content with the national body.
"This is not the first time I have been upset with the church," the Rev. David Zellmer told local Lutherans Thursday at First Lutheran Church in Sioux Falls, according to the Argus Leader.
Since last week, Zellmer has been hosting "conversations" at several Lutheran congregations to reflect on the actions of the 2009 Churchwide Assembly and their implications. Thursday's meeting was the last of five conversations with Zellmer.
Last August, the ELCA's chief legislative body voted to allow noncelibate gays and lesbians to be ordained. The vote has splintered the 4.6 million-member denomination, with a number of congregations severing ties and a group of renewal Lutherans working on an alternate North American Lutheran body.
Zellmer emphasized on Thursday that no congregation in the South Dakota synod will be forced to accept a gay or lesbian rostered leader. He also assured local believers that the synod still does not recognize same-sex marriage.
Already, about half a dozen South Dakota congregations have vowed to disaffiliate from the ELCA and there might be more, Zellmer said. The bishop has also been asked to lead the synod out of the denomination, as reported by the Argus Leader.
But the South Dakota bishop made clear that despite any misgivings he has about the Assembly's decision, he has no intention of leaving the national body.
"I don't jump ship just because we have an issue," he told Lutherans, according to the local newspaper. "We've been through lots of ups and downs. We've had lots of issues."
He also added that in the last two centuries, "not one breakoff ... has been successful."
Since the controversial vote in August, ELCA Presiding Bishop Mark S. Hanson has urged congregations not to make any hasty moves and to instead engage in conversation. He indicated in an online town forum last month that there's room for those on both sides of the debate – those who are pro-gay and those who hold homosexuality as unbiblical – in the denomination.
The passed resolution, Hanson explained, not only opens the way for congregations to ordain gays and lesbians in "life-long, monogamous, same gender relationships" but also recognizes that congregations with a traditional view of homosexuality have the right to teach and order their ministries accordingly.
Conversations have been taking place in Lutheran churches nationwide. While some Lutheran leaders have encouraged congregations to stay, others have expressed concerns that the 2009 Assembly action went too far.
"Through the years we have experienced some actions of the church with which we disagreed but with which we could still live faithfully and loyally. This one goes deeper," said Dr. James R. Crumley, Jr., former national Bishop of the Lutheran Church in America, at the Jan. 9 meeting of Orthodox Lutherans of South Carolina.
"It denies what we have confessed and adopted as the guiding principles of the church's constitution," he continued. "The ELCA is simply not the same church as it was before the assembly."
Crumley further rejected Bishop Hanson's recent statement that "the understanding we have of homosexuality does not seem to be reflected at all in the context of Biblical writers."
"To dismiss the passages of the Bible concerning homosexuality as irrelevant is beyond my understanding and appears to me to negate the authority of the Scriptures," the former LCA bishop asserted.
Like many in the denomination, Crumley noted that it is painful for him to express such negative views about the ELCA, considering he was always an advocate for it. And like many, he cannot see yet what God has planned for his church.
"I am deeply disappointed and distressed as I know many of you are."
The ELCA is the largest Lutheran church body in the United States and the fourth largest Protestant body.
Let's see...
1. ELCA's chief legislative body voted to allow noncelibate gays and lesbians to be ordained.
2. no congregation in the South Dakota synod will be forced to accept a gay or lesbian rostered leader. (whew, that was a close call).
3. synod still does not recognize same-sex marriage. (What a relief).
4. "I don't jump ship just because we have an issue"
5. He also added that in the last two centuries, "not one breakoff ... has been successful."
6. He indicated in an online town forum last month that there's room for those on both sides of the debate – those who are pro-gay and those who hold homosexuality as unbiblical – in the denomination.
Number one: Allowing ANY homosexual person to take ANY position of leadership within a christian church is a direct violation of God's laws. Any argument of that statement nullifies THAT church from being called "CHRISTIAN". (If your going to call yourself Christian, you MUST abide by all laws and ordinances laid down by the Christian Bible).
Number two and three: There is not need to respond to either as they both are covered by number one.
Number four: I WOULD IF I WERE YOU AND 'YESTERDAY' WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO LATE!
Number five: This is an obvious lie to hide the truth because the church may have been unsucessful breaking away, but individuals still left regardless what the church did. The loss remains the same, and the Kingdom of God grows stronger no matter which side you take.
Number six: Common sense in the ELCA is dead! This is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a long time. You take any two groups so diametrically opposed to each other in such a strong belief system such as Christianity and not only will they segregate themselves in different buildings, but religious wars have started this way.
The sovereign hand of Yah has to be in this. He often brings judgement on people by giving them exactly what they want until some will finally see the stupidity of what they are doing, most NEVER do.
My mother caught me smoking and decided to give me what I wanted and told me ok, "I will allow you to smoke" We sat outside on the porch and she was very friendly about it which surprised me. She gave me one of hers and one for her and lit both of them. She noticed my inexperience because I wasn't yet inhaling and taught me how to do that. I enjoyed this greatly as it gave me that first time, oxygen-deprived 'high' and taste. Within five minutes of finishing the first one, she gave me another. I thought WOW, mom is really being cool about this! After that one I was starting to become dizzy but didn't want to show a weakness in front of my mother so when she offered a third, I took it too and inhaled deeply. halfway through, i was on my hands and knees talking to "RALPH" about my "BUUIICK". I was sick for the rest of the day.
Now common sense would have told most people that this was not good, however a proud, stiff-necked person will always run head first into a brick wall. I smoked for the next 42 years.
Have another ciggie ELCA and clean your shoes off. Yah has given you your judgement.
(my comment at the bottom)
www.christianpost.com/article/20100115/lutherans-nationwide-wrestle-with-staying-in-leaving-elca/index.html
The South Dakota bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America said he has no plans of leading his synod out of the denomination over last year's pro-gay actions.
That's not to say he's content with the national body.
"This is not the first time I have been upset with the church," the Rev. David Zellmer told local Lutherans Thursday at First Lutheran Church in Sioux Falls, according to the Argus Leader.
Since last week, Zellmer has been hosting "conversations" at several Lutheran congregations to reflect on the actions of the 2009 Churchwide Assembly and their implications. Thursday's meeting was the last of five conversations with Zellmer.
Last August, the ELCA's chief legislative body voted to allow noncelibate gays and lesbians to be ordained. The vote has splintered the 4.6 million-member denomination, with a number of congregations severing ties and a group of renewal Lutherans working on an alternate North American Lutheran body.
Zellmer emphasized on Thursday that no congregation in the South Dakota synod will be forced to accept a gay or lesbian rostered leader. He also assured local believers that the synod still does not recognize same-sex marriage.
Already, about half a dozen South Dakota congregations have vowed to disaffiliate from the ELCA and there might be more, Zellmer said. The bishop has also been asked to lead the synod out of the denomination, as reported by the Argus Leader.
But the South Dakota bishop made clear that despite any misgivings he has about the Assembly's decision, he has no intention of leaving the national body.
"I don't jump ship just because we have an issue," he told Lutherans, according to the local newspaper. "We've been through lots of ups and downs. We've had lots of issues."
He also added that in the last two centuries, "not one breakoff ... has been successful."
Since the controversial vote in August, ELCA Presiding Bishop Mark S. Hanson has urged congregations not to make any hasty moves and to instead engage in conversation. He indicated in an online town forum last month that there's room for those on both sides of the debate – those who are pro-gay and those who hold homosexuality as unbiblical – in the denomination.
The passed resolution, Hanson explained, not only opens the way for congregations to ordain gays and lesbians in "life-long, monogamous, same gender relationships" but also recognizes that congregations with a traditional view of homosexuality have the right to teach and order their ministries accordingly.
Conversations have been taking place in Lutheran churches nationwide. While some Lutheran leaders have encouraged congregations to stay, others have expressed concerns that the 2009 Assembly action went too far.
"Through the years we have experienced some actions of the church with which we disagreed but with which we could still live faithfully and loyally. This one goes deeper," said Dr. James R. Crumley, Jr., former national Bishop of the Lutheran Church in America, at the Jan. 9 meeting of Orthodox Lutherans of South Carolina.
"It denies what we have confessed and adopted as the guiding principles of the church's constitution," he continued. "The ELCA is simply not the same church as it was before the assembly."
Crumley further rejected Bishop Hanson's recent statement that "the understanding we have of homosexuality does not seem to be reflected at all in the context of Biblical writers."
"To dismiss the passages of the Bible concerning homosexuality as irrelevant is beyond my understanding and appears to me to negate the authority of the Scriptures," the former LCA bishop asserted.
Like many in the denomination, Crumley noted that it is painful for him to express such negative views about the ELCA, considering he was always an advocate for it. And like many, he cannot see yet what God has planned for his church.
"I am deeply disappointed and distressed as I know many of you are."
The ELCA is the largest Lutheran church body in the United States and the fourth largest Protestant body.
Let's see...
1. ELCA's chief legislative body voted to allow noncelibate gays and lesbians to be ordained.
2. no congregation in the South Dakota synod will be forced to accept a gay or lesbian rostered leader. (whew, that was a close call).
3. synod still does not recognize same-sex marriage. (What a relief).
4. "I don't jump ship just because we have an issue"
5. He also added that in the last two centuries, "not one breakoff ... has been successful."
6. He indicated in an online town forum last month that there's room for those on both sides of the debate – those who are pro-gay and those who hold homosexuality as unbiblical – in the denomination.
Number one: Allowing ANY homosexual person to take ANY position of leadership within a christian church is a direct violation of God's laws. Any argument of that statement nullifies THAT church from being called "CHRISTIAN". (If your going to call yourself Christian, you MUST abide by all laws and ordinances laid down by the Christian Bible).
Number two and three: There is not need to respond to either as they both are covered by number one.
Number four: I WOULD IF I WERE YOU AND 'YESTERDAY' WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO LATE!
Number five: This is an obvious lie to hide the truth because the church may have been unsucessful breaking away, but individuals still left regardless what the church did. The loss remains the same, and the Kingdom of God grows stronger no matter which side you take.
Number six: Common sense in the ELCA is dead! This is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a long time. You take any two groups so diametrically opposed to each other in such a strong belief system such as Christianity and not only will they segregate themselves in different buildings, but religious wars have started this way.
The sovereign hand of Yah has to be in this. He often brings judgement on people by giving them exactly what they want until some will finally see the stupidity of what they are doing, most NEVER do.
My mother caught me smoking and decided to give me what I wanted and told me ok, "I will allow you to smoke" We sat outside on the porch and she was very friendly about it which surprised me. She gave me one of hers and one for her and lit both of them. She noticed my inexperience because I wasn't yet inhaling and taught me how to do that. I enjoyed this greatly as it gave me that first time, oxygen-deprived 'high' and taste. Within five minutes of finishing the first one, she gave me another. I thought WOW, mom is really being cool about this! After that one I was starting to become dizzy but didn't want to show a weakness in front of my mother so when she offered a third, I took it too and inhaled deeply. halfway through, i was on my hands and knees talking to "RALPH" about my "BUUIICK". I was sick for the rest of the day.
Now common sense would have told most people that this was not good, however a proud, stiff-necked person will always run head first into a brick wall. I smoked for the next 42 years.
Have another ciggie ELCA and clean your shoes off. Yah has given you your judgement.