Does 1John 5:7 belong in the bible?

[Paddy by Grace]

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

They apparently have been battling this for longer than any of us have been around so now I will show your here what I research out of this and let you decide for yourselves

Question: Is it true that 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the King James Bible?

Answer: 1 John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause.

This was started by a good friend of mine and I believe to be a genuine brother in Yeshua, His name an all others will be kept out until they decide to put them in, but here is how the discussion started:
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The Trinity

We have long since had teaching of what the Trinity is. The “Three in One!”, but is it so? Just because our fathers have taught us “a given” doctrine should we automatically take it for granted that they were completely accurate in their understanding? We have discovered many things that our fathers have taught us that has turned out to be completely incorrect. For example, the “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” a doctrine that has only been around for the last 250 years or so and came about from a young girl getting a “vision” about escaping “wrath”. This doctrine has recently become more infamous from the writings of books whose only motive was to make money. But is it in the scriptures? No! We are given example after example of Yahweh's people being shielded from His wrath (Noah in the Ark, the “Children of Israel” in Egypt and the pillars of cloud and fire in the wilderness are three such examples of Yahweh protecting His children “under the shadow of His wings”). If there is one (and there are many) such a mistaken understanding isn’t it prudent to research all of them to make certain that these things that we are taught are so? It is considered foolish to rely on man’s words and not on the Words in the scriptures.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,
in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,
and searched the scriptures daily, to see whether
those things that were said were so. (Act 17:11)

We are to search the scriptures and not take any Man’s “Word for it”. In saying this I would like to address the “Trinity”. I have always been taught that the “Trinity” was the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But where is this in scripture? I know what I use to use to verify this…
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.(1Jn 5:7)

Only later to find that this verse had been added by a “well meaning” monk several hundred years ago. You might be aware of this, but one of the biggest stumbling blocks in the “testifying to the “jews” is that they hear the christians say that there are three gods. When that is nowhere taught from the mouth of Yeshua. Here is some of what we see about who Yeshua is. We will address the “Spirit” in another teaching but will deal specifically with Yeshua and Yahweh in this teaching.

Who is Yeshua? Let’s start with His own words,
“You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them.
And these are the scriptures that bear witness of Me. (Joh 5:39)

And James (Ya’acob is what his mother called him, King James liked his own name here better)
“There is one Lawgiver and Judge, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?”(Jas 4:12).

Who is able to save? Isn’t it Yeshua who Saves? This is written in James/Ya’acob. Wouldn’t we expect this to be Yeshua?

Let’s look in Isaiah 12:2
“Behold, God is my salvation (this Hebrew word is specifically “Yeshua”);
I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song;
he also is become my salvation (again He has become my Yeshua).”

Is there more than one “Law Giver” and more than one "Saviour”?

Again in Isaiah we read
“Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:
who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time?
have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me;
a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.”(Isa 45:21)

So, you tell me? How many “Gods” are there?

There is one God, His Name is Yahweh His Salvation is Named Yeshua and we are to call upon the Name of Yeshua (Yahweh's Salvation) for Grace and Mercy to “Save” us from the penalty of Death.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have eternal life. (Joh 3:14-15)


Paddy: Wow, the things you say...lol. I did research this and I believe what you said about 1Jn5:7 being inserted after the canon was laid down, long after. My NAS does not have it. I had to look at several different articles to get to the truth b/c the first three I found always put (pbuh) after Yeshua's name which told me it had been written by a muslim so I immediately canceled them. But don't we still have the concept of the Trinity throughout scripture?
Peace in Yah

Paddy: Told you I might be a thorn but I love discussions like this. Without questions, answers cannot be found.


My point in the note is that Yeshua IS Yahweh... not a separate "being" and the "HS" is just the "Spirit" (or "Wind" as it is directly translated) of the already One "God" not three "Separate" persons... which IS supported by the text... whereas that thought that there are "Three" separate and unique" persons is not supported by the Texts... although it is taught as if it were. :-) And you are not a thorn.. At least you ask questions... Many of my friends don't even care enough to discuss. :-(


Paddy: Thanks Bro, But learning involves asking questions, otherwise you give validity to the speaker who may be off their rocker...lol. Question: how do you explain the baptism of Yeshua and what happened there as well as what happened at the "Transfiguration"?
As you said many of your friends don't question you, I have felt it on the other end where my questions go unanswered. it is equally frustrating and some of my friends know what I mean.
Peace bro


So, I have already focus'd (in only a few verses, but the number of verses were much greater than was allowed in one page, but they number of verses are int he multiple dozens) on how Yeshua is clearly Yahweh. So the only answer is Who is the "Spirit". If that is in agreement then I would actually go back to Gen 1 during the creation... If the Spirit was involved with Creation (as it is commonly regarded as being the "active force of creation" then again John 1:1-14 would again point to the Spirit as being part of Yeshua and as such Yahweh.

To use the old example... How many Paddys are there in your body? There might be many, many voices in your head (hehe) but in the end, when others look at Paddy they see one Paddy. This is the same with Yahweh...

There are many "attributes" of Yahweh, but in the end... He is One God.. Deut 6:4 Hear this, Oh Israel, Yahweh your God is One God.... Read More

And I LOVE good mature discussion and covet it greatly!!! :-)

Creator Father (He who births the Word), the Word (Yeshua) and Spirit (force, power / energy by which His presence is known and His Words accomplish the purpose for which they were sent) ... did I over-simplify???

not really :-)

All three are the one and same person, there is no individual named Yeshua. He is Yahweh come in the flesh through the door of the womb to fulfill His role on this earth.

Here is a questions>.>.... Read More
What was Yahweh's "role" on the earth?


as I said .... 3 aspects of The One ... although you have left the Elohim out of this -- if you get out of the mindset of treating these "characteristics" as proper nouns - I believe you will find we are on the same page Bro .... Love Ya ...


Paddy: OK, trying to absorb this... Richard, I like your 'simplification', it fits well with me and scripture. Jeff, I have always stood tall on Duet 6:4 as I have had to debate many muslim b/c they believe us to be Polytheist's b/c of the trinity, (they don't understand 'attributes', yet allah has 100 of them). So the phrase "3 persons of the trinity... Read More" should be exchanged for "the many attributes of Yahweh"? I know and understand Yah has many attributes, look at all the "Jehovah" names as well as it does take much of a search to find all of the diff names for Yeshua, (there are hundreds). Am I understanding you correctly?
Peace bro

forgot to answer question ... too much brain focus I guess...lol. How about one word answer to keep it simple although i could give a list a mile long... "Savior" (not to mention a fullfillment of everything set in motion since the Creation). How's that?


Elohim is yet another aspect of what/who God is... but seems to be more the all encompassing one... A mechanical translation for Elohim is often rendered as "Powers". And even then... Yeshua is Elohim as per John 1... :-)


Paddy... in the first box... yes.. there are hundreds of names for Yahweh (the "J" sound is a much newer invention fyi...

I don't want to answer your answer until other who might want to give their .02 :-)

But to give a hint... "Saviour" isn't the Prophesied reason for His coming...


and upon His shoulders shall be the government of the nations ...

[Paddy by Grace]

I am adding to this what I have studied and read:

Is it true that 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the King James Bible?

Answer: 1 John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause.

It is true that there is a small number of Scriptures that are not the same between the King James Bible and the so-called "Majority" Greek text. There are a number of reasons for this:

The so-called "Majority" text was not really based on the majority of texts, but rather a relatively small number of manuscripts. The last person to try to find the differences between the majority of Greek manuscripts, Dr. Von Soden, did not collate more than 400 of the more than 5,000 Greek texts. In other words, what is commonly called the "Majority" Greek text is not a collation of the majority of manuscripts at all.
The "Majority" Greek text is also the main Greek text used by the Eastern Orthodox religion. They had a vested interest in changing (or deleting) some texts. More on this in a moment.
1 John itself is not in a large number of extant Greek manuscripts.

So why then is 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible, but not in many of the existing Greek manuscripts? To understand the answer, we must look at the history of what happened shortly after the Bible was written.


The Greek and Roman Institutions

During the early growth of the Christian church, ministers (whether saved or not) wrote down doctrines that they said were Christian and Biblical. Starting after the death of the apostles (about 100 AD) many people taught the lie that Jesus was not God the Son and Son of God, or that Jesus became God at His baptism, or the false doctrine that the Holy Spirit was not God or was not eternal.

The growing religion that became known as Roman Catholic, after many debates eventually agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity. So they had no reason to remove 1 John 5:7 from their Bibles, since it supported what they taught.

But the Greek Eastern Orthodox religion was combating a heresy called
"Sabellianism" and would have found it easier to combat the heresy by simply removing the troubling passage from their Bibles.


A Trail of Evidence

But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse: 200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.



The Vaudois

Now the "Waldensian," or "Vaudois" Bibles stretch from about 157 to the 1400s AD. The fact is, according to John Calvin's successor Theodore Beza, that the Vaudois received the Scriptures from missionaries of Antioch of Syria in the 120s AD and finished translating it into their Latin language by 157 AD. This Bible was passed down from generation, until the Reformation of the 1500s, when the Protestants translated the Vaudois Bible into French, Italian, etc. This Bible carries heavy weight when finding out what God really said. John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards believed, as most of the Reformers, that the Vaudois were the descendants of the true Christians, and that they preserved the Christian faith for the Bible-believing Christians today.


Who Has the Most to Gain? Who Has the Most to Lose?

The evidence of history shows us that the Roman Catholic religion was relentless in its effort to destroy the Vaudois and their Bible. It took them until the 1650s to finish their hateful attacks. But the Vaudois were successful in preserving God's words to the days of the Reformation.

Now we have to ask ourselves a question: Who had the most to gain by adding to or taking away from the Bible? Did the Vaudois, who were being killed for having their Bibles, have anything to gain by adding to or taking from the words of God? Compromise is what the Roman religion wanted! Had the Vaudois just followed the popes, their lives would have been much easier. But they counted the cost. This was not politics; it was their life and soul. They above all people would not want to change a single letter of the words they received from Antioch of Syria. And they paid for this with their lives.

What about the "scholars" at Alexandria, Egypt? We already know about them. They could not even make their few 45 manuscripts agree. How could we believe they preserved God's words?

The Reformation itself owes a lot to these Christians in the French Alps. They not only preserved the Scriptures, but they show to what lengths God would go to keep his promise (Psalm 12:6-7).

And that's only part of the story about the preservation of God's words.